Discourse between Councillors of State relating to the present state of Ireland

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(NB: Henry Jones’s marginal notations have been placed after the paragraph to which they refer)

No. 5
Heades of that discourse betweene 2 Councelors of State concerning the Present affaire of Ireland
1. That the Relations comming from the Councel board in Ireland concerning that Kingdom are different from what are given by some particular members thereof. <The relations are made by { } persons according to theire { } [ ] the act. Sure I ame that the relations from the state will with reason be judged suche as are moste to be {rel}ied on>
2. That the I.C. came into Ireland anno 1607, when and since, he observed both the Principall persons, and the Common people very desirous to live in Peace, and vnder Protection of the Lawes
<2. How inclinable they are {to p}eace let times foregoing {sh}ow. as for the yeare 1607 a time of { } so esteemed [ ] this discourse brought forth the Designe for a rebellion that sett forth what { } therafter>
And that the gover n ment did grow more licentious & absolute, by how much the People weare found more obedient & Patient hence that giving way to Projectors, Monopilers, and probing fellowes (the instruments and factors of some ministers of state) to vex the People with strange and vnknowne Lawes suits for Concealement, Intrusions, alienations: and Martial-Lawe with greate severity Executed; whereby they began to murmure & repine, yet it weare they resolved to beare any thing so they might enjoy theire Religion & lands.
<[ ] Analecta>
This I.C. saith that he doth therefore looke so farre back as the yeare 1607 thereby to observe by what degrees the People weare apted & Prepared for this revolt. <weare all the pretended greevances before or those after named graunted to be facts yet could not {pre}pare and apt a Loyall people for Revolting especially wheare {lib}erty hath beene given for representing theire greevances to the full, and his Maiestie affording what redresse could be desired with which these men seeemed satisfied even while revolting.>
3. Some heades of greevances after the Setlement of that peace vizt
1. anno 1614. the Plantation in Leinster, the greatest of greevances. se af t er num 6 <quere>
2.Levying the Kings rents by Soldiers
Noe other way would serve that was to pay the soldiers.
<quere>
3. The Statut against Recusants very disorderly executed by fit t s and againe intermitted by Order from the Councell board.
<the clemency of the State for in remitting {be}times the execution at the statute is now {a griev}ance>
4.Sessing soldiers upon Supposed delinquents. <quere>
5. Vnreasonable Power given by Judges of Assize to English gentlemen to determine suits wherein the Native must suffer in a difference betweene him and an English or Scottish man. that the said Judges could act to transferre [ ] theire Power unto others. <quere { } behave equally { } [and be] chosen by { } [ ]>
6. Silencing of all Irish lawyers for Recusancie, upon whose fidelity and Learning only the Natives could confide, English lawyers, then Practising, beeing for the most Part atturnies called to the Barre, and such as wanting Practise in Westminster weare admitted heere by theire dependence on greate men. That Necessity Enforced the Calling in Recusants, otherwise the Courtt had { } all differances { } before taken vp in the Country. <{ } and [ ] many & { } that theire practising { } pleased thereby did not { }yers { }ot the graces oath of fealty { } [ ] the Calling of them to the barre {was} [on account of] taking all Suits of the Country { } reckoned among the Graces { } [ ] necessity { } Courts of Justice { }>

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4.Plantations {Ulster
{Leinster
5.The first Plantation by Q: Elizabeth was of six Countyes in Ulster excheated to the Crowne by the attainder of the 2 Earles of Tirone and Tireconnell with theire adherents: to which there was just title if that plantation had gonne no further then the Delinquents, but seeing it could not be but some in those six countys weare not with drawne into the Rebellion, why should the lands of those Inocent be da shutt up with the other.
<why should we give way to a proposition against an Act of Parliament finding grounded on former Inquisitions finding the said 6 intire Countys for the Crowne>
There might have beene remedy for this, had it not beene Provided that the Greate Office should be reserved as sacred, not to be questioned or traversed.
<Therefore noe reason that Office should be traversed>
6. Next followed the Plantation of Leinster (of which before number .3 for finding whereof
1.The Lo: deputy in person with part of the Army went into severall Counties to countenance the busines. <quere>
2.The Commissioners weare of the Privy Councel, or Ministers of State, who weare assured of a Part in the distribution. <quere who they weare>
3.Juries of such as would returne Verdicts for the King upon indifferent evidence.
<quere who they weare.>
4.The Kings title found upon some nice Point or moth-eaten record of a graunt past of those lands to Roger le Pigott (se if not Bigot) or some other in those times and for want of heires males reverting to the Crowne. <quare>
5.That the grants of the said lands made to the present possessors and theire Ancesstors from several Kings, weare rejected because the King was (forsoothe) deceived in his graunt, not beeing informed of his Title, notwithstanding the clause of excerta scientia etc: And that the first Patentees neuer weare possessed, nor ever Paid any rent to the Crowne out of those lands. <quare>
6. A fourth part only taken away, the other 3 parts of the lands given to the Natives: but by partiality in the divisions that 4th was worth the other three, the rent raised, and the poore{freeholder vexed} out & so wasted with attendance that they could { } patents. <the whole beeing the Kings it was of favour that any was given back yet had they 3 parts: only a 4. reserved to the Crowne>
7. E.C. Though I knewe the People weare neuer wel{l used yet did } I not beleeve so much Inquity & cruelty weare exercised { }

<if he weare a Councellor of State in England & knewe the Irish never to have beene well used he can not be free whose hand was in the government of the kingdom. the government in this kingdom { } to the Irish for the moste part above more then to the Brittish, beeing less countenanced and there [ ] counsells in { }>
8.It was the Art of Governors in Ireland to keepe the stat{e} ignorant of theire doings: Partly by engaging strangers to spe{ } or by the hindring complaints & that by the Secretary for the Irish { } complying with the Governors, whereby the greevances weare not p{ } or the plaintifs dismissed with some frivolous letter to the deputy { } kept back others from compl{ }
< the state of England could not be ignorant of the proceedings in Government heere, hauing Soe many, So watchful, and so forward informers. the Lord Chancellor called from his Government to answer complaints. Se if not so in other Governors. Se Sir John Perot concerning the chief Governors of this kingdome.>

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19a

9.These are but fewe instances of greate Provocations, & short of that huge masse of Provocations and indignities laid on the Nobility and gentry & people by that Visier, Bashaw Strafford, who after the first yeare ruled the people with a rodde of iron. objected
<Se the praises given in the Act of subsidie fo & after retracted Se 7 also>
1.That he Promised faire vntil the 6 subsidies graunted, and graunted they weare with the greatest alacrity possible, (quere if not moste by the protestants) which subsidies weare raised to thrice the value of those before.
<quare>
2. The Act of Limitation denied by him <I vnderstand not the intent of this Act>
3.Sanguinary Lawes laboured for: committing those that opposed (the houses sitting) one, a Privy Councelor therefore sequestered from the Councel board. <quere>
3.4. The I.C. exclaimeth of extreame injustice that his Estate was by the King & Parliament given to his sonne & not disposed of to repaire sufferers.
<In this he falleth foule on his Maiesties Honour & Justice, short of an Infidel King etc.>
4.5. His cariage to the E. of St. Albans: Mr Boorke: and at Portumny.
<quere>
5.6. The passages in finding of Conaught (Se the particulars objected).
<quere>
10. Concerning Religion:
The feare of it began anno. 1641
1.When after the granting of the Graces, the Parliament was adjourned from the 7 of August to the 16 of Nov. whereby no bills could passe for those Graces.
<Se the cause of adjorning the Parliament>
2.The Petition against Religion framed heere. & one other petition of the Lords in England.
<The Petition in England did not concerne this Kingdome and that framed in Ireland was but the Act of Privat men: neither do I find it presented in England>
3.The Act in England for disposing the passeing att Lands of the Natives - a great solecisme in State & a reason of the proceedinge of these troubles.
4.the Petitcion of [ ] in England.
11. E.C. why weare not these things mentioned in the Remon{strance} of those authorized by commission to examine, the motives pretend{ed by } the Irish of theire insurrection: (no such clause in the Commission)
I.C. these with other particulars of the like nature expunged out of the Examinations, the bearer thereof directed so to do 1. thereby to make the Irish odious 2. to conceale the causes of the insurrection. 3. to acquitt all others from beeing authors of {y}t; exce{pt} the King and Queene
<{ }in that commission { } the losses of the { } &c. such as the { }are then given { } rising about { }re{ } examinations Put {} {r}emonstrance now { }nged; neither wea{ } fore mentioned then though { } in probability but after {found } out & gathered together to {gi}ve [ ] a collar [ ] it was done: why then of why otherwise weare they not bee produced in more then a yeare after the Rebellion, who after a general assembly from all parts had Prompt theire witts to find out something to say for theire doings. As for the aspersions cast on the K & Q they are theire owne, not ours & we appeale to the Remonstrance if on our Parts any use were made thereof made.

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12. Concerning Cruelty
I.C. Protestants pillaged: & men resisting Killed but the report of killing men women & children, or men desiring quarter, or such like inhumanities weare but inventions to drawe large contributions to the warres: by such such to make the Enemy odious is an ordinary course in all warres. No such thing (saith this I.C.) was donne for 6 moneths after the stirrs began; he then beeing heere: what since donne by acts of hostility wheare no quarter given, he can not tell.
<he passeth over what was donne in this kind { } force against the Protestants before that weare in theire Power. { } as for his denying of it se the particulars to the [same? ] { } this Irish Councellor { } of his owne experience. Sure the our suffrings weare not so greate as we would have them that he discourseth therein nothing. He saith that it is usuall with all Enemys to make there adversaries odious by [ ] reports [ ] of things that neuer weare. if they have so deceived: or have puffed theire martryrologe with some killd by vs in fight or the n other occasion, we do not. we have Instances too many to seek for any and we have to deceive the world with feigned relations. hearesays against a manself can be taken strongest. They themselves report we heare & relate.>
13. No credit to be given to the Remonstrance the Commissioners representing the Crueltys of the Irish in as horrid shapes as can be imagined, worss then they weare: as appeareth by the liberty taken in Commenting on some depositions beyond the sence of the depositions & the reasonable construction of the wordes : taking heare-say for Positive truth: they might as well have sett downe the depositions in wordes.
<the charge is general not instancing in any particular. I referre myselfe heeein to that discourse compared with the annexed Examinations both printed: neither do we take hearesay, for positive truths. leave it to the reader to consider of it as it was presented: neither are all hearesays to be cast off especially being delivered by credible persons and upon oath; But heerein we are taught to beleeve the allegations of this discourse no farther then we shall se Evident Proofe for theme.>
14.The English Soldiers killed many thousands of women & children & that by [commmand (as they alleadge) from the llords Justices: who favoured no officer not active that way: The soldiers beeing required in theire returne (as it was called) from birding, to give an accompt of how many they killed
<I doubt not but this is no less false: that either thousands of such weare so killed: or by commaund, or an accompe required of it. yet quere; quere also of this fact of Sir Charles Coote>
15. The Irish before & since these Cruelties sent away of the english, as well soldiers & officers, as women & Children, to sea ports & places of safety.
<some did; but as these are by others blamed for their respect to the English, so are not all to advantage themselves, and hide the’re crueltys by the goodnes of some.
6.They Exceed vs in Charity, Humanity, and Honour
<Se how, in theire whole proceedings>
7.The Lo: Parsons laboured extirpation of the Irish <quero>
1.giving safe Conduct to many Inocent persons, yet vnderhand commaunding that no notice should be taken of his Protection: <quere> and He applauding that fact of Sir Charles Coote making a { } labourer to blow in his pistill & so barbarously kill{ed }
<quere of this fact of Sir Charles Coote>
2.He concealing from the Earl of Ormond & the P{ } the first rising in Ulster least it might be rep{ }
<quere>
3. refusing armes to the Earle of Ormond and one other Privy Counce{llor } offeri{ng} 7000 men for service of Ulster.
<quere>
4. giving armes to some Papists thereby to put th{ } some did) others refusing those british yet weare { } & [ ] by sharpe and causeless excursions from Dublin
<quere>
5. In his Letters reproaching the Earl of Ormond as {cold?} in the service of Extirpation.
<quare>

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18. E.C.what hearts have theis monsters to kill the Inocent and such as have no Power to hu rt resist and that not only when the sworde was drawen, or that women & children perished by casualty of warre fire, or fury, but in cold blood to kill harmeless babes & Poore women is inhumane.
<See that before in number. 12.etc>
17.The danger is threatned of calling in forraigne Forces into this Kingdom, if theire desires be not graunted & they forced thereunto
<they speake theire thoughts on this>
18. I.C. It may be another Cause of theire taking armes to mainetaine togeather with theire owne interest his Maiestie rights & Prerogatives.
<obserue that this is but a cause by the way. how likely these are to maintaine the Kings prerogative was invaded by Others who themselves go [ ] heere - beyond all precedents for Copying Commissions soe of Oyer &c makeing lawes &c.

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Heades of the discourse of the 2 Councelors of State concerning the affaires of Ireland Printed at Kilkenny Decemd: 10: 1641
5 gr
1 Oyer & [ ]
2. please crowne [ ]
3 Petty mactors for Equity by Com [ ] of the people [ ] of the Judges & charge
2 wiles 1 multiplicity of busines occasioning references 2. greate [ ] compel & redress 13. art since then references only the consent of thys
if the said grand temple complicit the [ ] Judges, or if not there to the [ ] Judges questioned for [ ]
6. gr. lawyers
His Maiesties directions for [ ] so what yeere & on what occasion 13. ac. Judges.